Religion, Science and Spirit
Could it be that the problems we face have nothing to do with Obama and that he is only the current example of what we see as something wrong? Since whoever is President is the leader and example of our society in the US, I posit that when the system is malfunctioning then the public leader of the system will look like he/she is malfunctioning. It does not matter if it is W, Obama, Newt, Hillary, or whoever. We need to change our view of what is real.
That means looking a lot deeper than most of us are willing to look. It is so much easier to blame everything on a scapegoat. Just host another one up on the cross. That will fix everything. Then we can remain arrogant and self-righteous and feel good we did something (just remember to wash your hands). So, vote for whoever is not in power and things will all be better. Right - and I have some "land" in Florida for sale...........
This article by David Korten called Religion, Science, and Spirit: A Sacred Story for Our Time is very thought-provoking. Check it out and let me know what you think.
Comments
I have had this conversation with you Michael many time. Regardless of what we should believe we have to live in the day to day reality as well. The one that we as a society create. It is no less real than any of the others. To say that the problems we face have nothing to do with Obama or we should say our government in general lets them of the hook. For remember they run our day to day reality. Believe what you want about the millenniums past and the millenniums to come (They are important) but controlling the day to day world we live in is part of our responsibility. What if we do live in the Grand Machine scenario?? Then controlling our day to day reality and existence is really all we have to do. You ever think about that.
I for one wont let our leaders of the hook for a piss poor job just because life is bigger and more complex than they will ever understand and the majority of the members of society will ever understand. Not enough people in this world will ever have the intelligence, the time, the belief, or the understanding to take on such deep thinking or contemplation. The article says that these belief,s may already be embraced by society and that it has no institutional support. I agree there is no institutional support but those searching for intricate answers to intricate questions are few as well.
I still believe that we need to function in the day to day world. It is our obligation to improve it, build on it, and nurture it. We should also give our spiritual beliefs equal time. No one deserves more than the other.
I like the analogy of the six blind men describing an Elephant. God, the Cosmos, our purpose and our future may just be to big to explain.
The next part is that if we are not willing embrace an Integral view of the world then we are stuck with what we have. You will never change the system by beating on the door. Together, our individual choices determine our collective fate and shape the course of the journey far beyond our time. So, we have to take individual responsibility for what is around us. And, that might mean holding people accountable through the voting box. It might also mean understanding that the universe is not a machine and there is not a grandfather-like personality sitting on a throne directing the actions of the universe. Instead, The Kingdom is within, and, The Integral Spirit cosmology is consistent with the findings of quantum physics, which reveals that the apparent solidity of matter is an illusion and at the deepest level of understanding only relationships are real.
If only relationships are real and you don't have a relationship with Obama, for example, then a person getting emotional about Obama or Paul Ryan is, on a personal level, getting upset with an illusion. What is someone to do? Understand what it is you really believe and if it is not an Integral view of the cosmo and you are still living in those past cosmologies then it just might be you who are the cause of the issues you see in the world.
Now on the other hand they will respond to their day to day existence. How can we incorporate a more utopian way of thinking into that?
Anyway as I said I could not agree with you more. Our role needs to be one of a teacher. You have to start at the beginning, the 1st grade or the day to day life that is controlled by those we have installed as leaders. We need like minded thinkers in government for the masses who rely on government for all their answers. And make no mistake there are those who are quite successful and highly intelligent that still think government has all the answers. But you know that and basically just said it.
I am interested in some others peoples ideas to this. The article was little long and the type was very small on my computer but it was a thought provoking read. It was worth the time.
So just live for ourselves? But is that selfish? Maybe not if a few pick up on our positive energy.
The description of the three helped me articulate each belief mechanism. With the Distant Patriarch however, I think, lumping Christianity in with Judaism and Islam is incorrect. Christianity or Christ's message was a move away from the relationship of individuals to God as priority to a primary relationship of man to one another as in "Love thy neighbor" which we all know only worked for a few years until Charlemagne came along and declared that killing for Christ was an acceptable tenet of the Christian faith.
To be honest, I like the Grand Machine scenario or narrative since it so effectively integrates quantum mechanics with the mysteries of what we refer to as reality and what is real with regards to the material. The Integrative Spirit seems unrealistic. I mean if we can't get the Christ thing right after 2000 years I see no hope in moving to the next level.
Within the essay is a great analogy to our expectations vs outcome and disappointment with government. If each of us is a cell in this organism called the USA, "...imagine the distraction of our minds (the government leaders being the mind in this case) in the attempt to track details of the life of each individual cell in our bodies". This is the problem. We have relinquished so much personal responsibility to the government and built up our expectations that we are bound to be disappointed. They cannot focus on "our" problem. At the same time we espouse and hold high the ideal of individual rights and liberties as sacrosinct. We operate in a system of contradictions and opposing values with an outcome that is never quite in balance. Individual vs the greater good. It is great that those that read this agree that there needs to be a new narrative involving the Integrative Spirit, but in reality first there has to be agreement on values and really basically what is "self-destructive" to the "Earth Product". Agreement on how we move from the Distant Patriarch to the Grand Machine to Integrative Spirit. Currently, we have relied on the government to do this through regulations and laws since individuals do not have the self discipline to do it on their own, being overwhelmed by the competitive instinct for survival. And isn't that same instinct the basic principles of Capitalism, which I am sure we are not going to abandon within our lifetimes is based upon.
On a cellular level it is no wonder we can only focus on a Paula Deen, or a Trayvon-Zimmerman or any other issue. I mean whatever happened to Benghazi, Fast and Furious, and the drone controversy. We just cannot focus that long on any one item too long and once the next one comes up we or should I say the media fixates on it believing we are also fixated on the issue and as long as fixation continues it sells advertising. They aren't selling news, they are selling advertising. That is the Grand Machine working in the form of capitalism. Which diverges into a completely different subject, ie what form of capitalism do we want to aspire. Is corporatism the next level of capitalism, the cellular reorganization into a more efficient form or a cancerous outgrowth? Certainly it distances us from operating on the micro level, prevents us focusing on the local level and the Integrative Spirit concept. Just a point to ponder.
Of course it is unattainable to have a world as defined by our media that is ideal. That is the point! Forget about that and embrace a new paradigm of your own thinking that does the most good for all of nature, people, the planet, etc. That will bring you the most joy and do the most good for everything you interact with moment by moment.
On a simpler note free your mind and your ass will follow. Or in this case hopefully the masses will follow. It does start with us as individuals. Maybe that is all we can do or are supposed to do. If we accept that there is so much more to life than what our government controls than we will be much happier. And with realizing this and being happy it will rub off on those around us without us directly trying to enlighten them.
So just live for ourselves? But is that selfish? Maybe not if a few pick up on our positive energy.
I find we are in agreement again.
WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Paul might being saying right about now, "Bullshit. You watched the entire Zimmerman trial." That wasn't news. That was entertainment and a learning experience. I have a concealed weapon permit and carry a gun everywhere I go. I learned quite a bit about the law in so far as self defense is concerned. Also, I learned how your life can be totally ruined by defending yourself if you are not careful how you conduct yourself in the situation.
Exactly! Especially when He's suppose to know what is going to happen before it does. If I had that ability, I would have thrown that plan right in the trash.
Back to what the author wrote. My takeaway was that he was saying our current societal structures do not reflect an integral approach which I agree with. I don't expect them to at this point since there are still so many people living in the patriarchal (Old Testament) world or the Grand Machine (intellectual/scientist) world. Once enough folks transition to an integral spirit way of thinking things will change all by themselves. People will just know what is right in the new model and do it and it will be completely natural.
If God is all knowing then why does God allow bad things to happen?
No one knows the mind of God, except for God himself. He is infinite; we are finite. We are not entirely clueless about his character, however, because God speaks to us through his Word. According to the Bible, one reason bad things happen is because the whole world is under the control of the evil one (1Jn 5:19). That's why Jesus taught us to ask God to deliver us from the evil one when we pray (Mt 6:13). Even in the Garden of Eden - in paradise, before Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit - Satan was already there, waiting to tempt them to disobey God (Ge 3: 1-6).
Another reason bad things happen is because people sin. The reason why God allows people to sin and be tempted to sin is to test our character, faith, and love of God. We don't have to Sin. God gave us free will
(Dt 29:29). What we do know is that when bad things happen, we should not rage against God. To revolt against God is to fall prey to the devil. The devil is a liar (Jn 8:44) and wants us to believe that God is blameworthy. But the Bible says that God is light; in him there is no darkness at all (1Jn 1:5). God is not the enemy; Satan is the enemy. Through his Spirit God empowers us to war against the enemy by following Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior - during good times and bad times.
Now don't argue with me about anything in the above paragraph. I just typed what was written in my Bible. I am still searching for answers myself.. I had not read the Bible in a long time. So many put so much stock and faith in it I decided to read every word of it. Some of it is pretty rough but that's for another discussion. When we see all these bad things happen do we blame God or if we don't believe in god do we just say well that's the way things are? Or do we fight evil, do we educate the ignorant, do we change the world . What is your participation in humanity going to be?
Secondly, you, me or anyone cannot force anyone else to do anything. (When we see all these bad things happen do we blame God or if we don't believe in god do we just say well that's the way things are? Or do we fight evil, do we educate the ignorant, do we change the world? What is your participation in humanity going to be?) All these questions you ask except the last one refer to us making other people change their behavior. You cannot change anyone. The only person you can change is yourself. You can't even change your core, you are who you are, but you can change how you respond and you can change your behavior. The last question is personal. I said previously in this thread that we are all born with at least one gift and it is our responsibility to find out what that gift is and use it. Most people don't even think in those terms, but utilizing our gifts is our contribution to humanity.
And Mike, I thought it was obvious the question was not a part of the bible, but rather a question posed that allowed a biblical answer translated by theologians. I can't see that Paul did anything wrong or dishonest.
And, I was pointing out that 100 q & a's are not in the Bible. Let's let this little side note rest. It really is meaningless at this point (I hope).
An integral spirit approach to these questions (I think) would mean not asking these questions. They are unanswerable in the paradigm of the Great Father. Once one understands things from the integral spirit perspective they would not ask that question anymore.
I don't think it is more complicated than that. Once one operates from a level of wholeness you will automatically exercise the exact correct action you should do every moment. The action could be inactivity, heroism, kind words, eating, or yanking someone out of the way of a bus. But, you will not be analyzing what to do and then make your choice. You will instinctively know what to do. If you had to analyze every moment to determine your next action you would end up with analysis-paralysis.
Maybe an apt analogy that comes to mind would be the study of electrical currents. Once you understand the binary (positive and negative) you would stop asking questions about why is there positive and negative electrons (good and bad) and focus on how to build circuits that can use the electricity (the good and bad together flow to create something else). IDK - does that make sense? It is difficult to find words for something that on one level is beyond language but certainly not beyond our understanding. Like the Heinlein science fiction book, Stranger in a Strange Land, you just "grok" the idea.
Now for something completely different. It has been stated many times in our threads that data and factual sources are the most important source of information to derive a conclusion through analysis, and I have been criticized for using gut feel. I read something recently that got me to thinking (oh shit). All of us have a gut feel based on an aggregate of our life experiences. We use this gut feel all the time without even realizing it. I don't care how logical ones mind works, we base our actions and decisions, often times, on gut feel. Even if we are also using data. My point is this, ones gut feel is accurate most of the time. Our first immediate reaction to something often times turns out to be correct (admittedly, not always). What made my mind go off in this direction was your comment, "The action could be inactivity, heroism, kind words, eating, or yanking someone out of the way of a bus. But, you will not be analyzing what to do and then make your choice. You will instinctively know what to do. If you had to analyze every moment to determine your next action you would end up with analysis-paralysis." So, gut feel can be characterized as instinct. Just a thought...
Good points that show the difficulty of using language to convey complex ideas. One book I am reminded of is the Tao Te Ching which when one reads it, seems to talk in riddles and sometimes contradicts itself. Yet, those techniques have shown to be the best way to convey an idea that is, at this point in our language skills, beyond our language.
Whether you use the word ability or gift, my mind wanders into this place where I see the concept tied into a personal ego. Then I get stuck on that and cannot go further. Yet, I get a vague sense you are talking about something else yet I cannot really see it.
Funny, how our minds work. That is why humor, letting go of the outcome, not making judgements of right/wrong, etc are so important. Otherwise, we get stuck and cannot flow with the process unfolding so beautifully in front of us.
"Whether you use the word ability or gift, my mind wanders into this place where I see the concept tied into a personal ego. Then I get stuck on that and cannot go further. Yet, I get a vague sense you are talking about something else yet I cannot really see it."
These statements you made is precisely why I didn't state what I know my gift to be. I didn't want anyone to think I was being egotistical. It is good enough to know your abilities without broadcasting them. It is only important that we utilize what we were given. Nothing more, nothing less. In other words, it only becomes tied into a personal ego if you go around bragging about it. Be comfortable with the knowledge that you are contributing even if it's only in a small way. That small contribution may be all that is required of you to make the whole function efficiently.
the wiki has everything!
I did not remember this scene and had to look it up
I figured you had gotten it from a line in a movie because that's where you get a lot of the Schtuff that you quote, I mean, say. Ha ha. I'm hear.
I'm listening to all of y'all. Lol
I know what your gift is Jeff.
That is what the whole enchilada is about. It takes surrender (letting of the personal ego and trying to control outcomes), trust (believe that everything is OK/will happen/is in balance/ is right), and gratitude (thanking our lucky stars/God/spirit/??? for being conscious and everything we currently have). Those three actions/attitudes/core beliefs will yield a state of grace (warm and fuzzy) sometimes when everything is harmonized.